Welcome to Adobe GoLive 6

LK: Hey Jen, here's a deep, philosophical question for you. If my preteen daughter, Becky, and I run down to Payless ShoeSource to replace her perpetually outgrown church shoes, and she gets lost in a time warp vacillating between the white, too-spiky-heeled, open-backed sandals with the rhinestone, sparkly butterflies that she wants, and the beige, slightly-less-spiky, rhinestone-free, more-respectable-but-still-attractive sandals that I want her to get, (you'd be proud of me--I gave her my input then stood back and let her decide)--does God know which pair she'll finally end up clutching to her fashion-conscious heart as we exit the store?

JS: Before I answer that, let me warn you that the "I'm going to let you choose" routine can really backfire. I did that once and found myself watching my own preteen clutching a pair of six-inch platforms to her fashion-conscious heart. But back to your question--does God know which pair of shoes she'll choose? Of course He does. His divinity extricates Him from the boundaries of time and space and allows Him to see what will be as if it already is.

LK: I agree, but some folks are rethinking the age-old doctrine of divine omniscience. They're wondering: if God knows our choices such that we can never surprise Him, are we still truly free to choose? And perhaps more importantly, if God knows how we'll respond to Him, is He still truly free to interact with us in a spontaneous, unbiased fashion?

JS: I remember pleading with a friend of mine who was about to file for divorce. He was utterly convinced that his wife was his enemy. I told him to keep loving her on the basis that Jesus loved Judas in spite of the fact that He knew of his future betrayal. Isn't this the supreme mark of agape? God kept pouring out His love upon Judas even though He knew that the relationship had no future. Although His goal is to save us, His love isn't results-driven in the sense that it withdraws when things don't pan out. So yes, we are free to choose, even though God knows what we will choose. Why should we assume otherwise?

LK: I think that to assume otherwise is to create a problem where none exists. But those who are entertaining the idea that God doesn't comprehensively know the future, seem to be doing so as a reaction against an extreme version of His sovereignty that equates His foreknowledge with predetermination.1 Calvinism, or "classical theology," teaches that God not only knows everything we'll do, He has also determined what it will be beforehand. As one Calvinist apologist has said, "The will of God is inevitable. God does what He wants. . .. Should God have created all men for no other purpose than to consign them to an eternity in hell. . .. we would have no recourse. There would be no reason to protest. God can do with that which is His own as He wishes. . .You were made to glorify Him either as a vessel of mercy or as a vessel of wrath."2 Doesn't exactly give you warm, fuzzy feelings toward God, does it?

JS: I'm taking a class at Westminster Theological Seminary, and I have a hunch some of their classical theologians might say that warm, fuzzy feelings toward God are not what we want, anyway! I think they would also assert that God's predetermination does not eclipse free will. I asked my professor for a comment on this, and he said, "God accomplishes His sovereign plan through the true validity of the choices of the secondary agent." But I don't understand how God can determine my choice and still allow me my choice. In other words, it seems like claiming that God allows free will, and yet Himself predetermines everything, is self-contradictory.

As you pointed out, some react to this by saying that God neither determines our choices, nor knows what our choices will be. Intriguingly, there seems to be an underlying agreement between the "classical" and the "open" camps. One says that God knows the future, in fact determines the future. The other says that God neither knows nor determines the future. But both think that for Him to know the future is to determine it. Don't the Scriptures teach (And I'm finally getting around to your last question) that God knowing the future does not equate to Him controlling the future? That God can genuinely experience disappointment of His brightest hopes and best-laid plans? Bringing this into the context of salvation: God knows that not all will be saved, and yet ordains that none be lost. Can you say "Amen" to that, little blond prairie rabbit?

LK: Amen! God has made it clear that what He wants more than anything is for "all [people] to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4, NKJV). Unfortunately, our perverse choices often make it impossible for even God to get what He wants. Calvinism can't seem to stomach such frustration of the divine will. I appreciate C.S. Lewis' observation about that: "It is objected that the ultimate loss of a single soul means the defeat of omnipotence. And so it does. In creating beings with free will, omnipotence from the outset submits to the possibility of such defeat. What you call defeat, I call miracle: for to make things which are not Itself, and thus to become, in a sense, capable of being resisted by its own handiwork, is the most astonishing and unimaginable of all the feats we attribute to the Deity."3

I actually find God's vulnerability to His creation very endearing and admirable. I envision Him as the kind of parent who takes us to the shoe store, and after reasoning with us, (assuming we're of reasoning age--I wouldn't try it with a two-year-old), steps back and lets us try our wings a little--which, as you say, can sometimes backfire. Which brings me back, in my circular way, to the great sandal debate. Which pair do you think Becky ended up clutching to her little preteen heart as we exited the store?

JS: What, do you think I'm all-knowing or something?

LK: Oh, brother. Everybody wants to be a comedian. Well, make an educated guess then.

JS: I guess that she, after some struggle and deliberation, resigned herself to tasteful functionality vs. flash and foot problems and chose the respectable beige shoes. But I base that on a knowledge of Becky's tasteful, respectable personality, which might have, since I last saw her, been blown away in the winds of adolescent autonomy-seeking. She's how old?

LK: Twelve-and-a-half. And the "respectable beige shoes" were actually a two-and-a-half-inch-heel compromise between the really spiky-heeled sparkly butterflies and the too-respectable sandals that I originally wanted her to get. But even if you or I foreknew what she'd choose, foreknown is not foregone; the decision was still hers to make. And that's how it is with God. While He may envision for us something as prosaic as sensible shoes, or something as profound as eternal life--and even foreknow which way we'll go--the decision is still ours to make.

But you're pretty good at this game, Jen. Let's try another one--If I was stranded on a desert island, dying of thirst, and I had a choice between talking theology and dousing my burning tonsils with an ice-cold glass of fresh coconut-pineapple juice, what do you think I'd choose?

JS: You'd die of thirst talking theology. But my knowing that about you in no way consigns you to that decision. Know what I mean, egghead?

LK: Fair enough. I'm responsible for my own compulsive communicativeness. And if any of our readers would like to indulge their compulsive need to communicate, they can just click on this link àjennifer@jenniferjill.org and join the conversation! It's your turn to let us know what you think!

1. This extreme and unbiblical position--that God does not comprehensively know the future but rather knowledgeably anticipates it--is referred to as the "Openness of God" position. While it has many good and valid things to say about God's vulnerability and interactiveness with humanity, it also significantly undermines His sovereignty.

2. Jay Adams, The Grand Demonstration (Santa Barbara, CA: EastGate Publishers, 1991), pp. 55, 49, 50, emphasis in original.

3. C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain (New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 1996), pp. 129-130.

"Excellent article/dialog Jennifer! It is astounding to me that the traditional Calvanists so distort the image of a freedom giving God to that of a pure dictator/arbitor of both good and evil, with His created beings mere automatons robotically carrying out pre-programed thoughts and deeds. How can any believer of such rubbish honestly look anyone in the eye and share the possibility of salvation experience through receiving the gift of Christ and His righteousness? Yet multitudes are truly under that deception! Amazing!! The Divine gift of freedom to CHOOSE does indeed determine our eternal destiny.

Your and LK's dialogs are quite stimulating both theologically and intellectually....glad to be on your list!"

-Michael Delaney, Florida

"Is it possible that, in regard to our "choices" and Divine Foreknowledge, Omniscience, or whatever label you want to put on it, God may "see" a multitude of outcomes based upon which choice we make (if we truly have "free," non-predetermined will)? Kind of like a chess player that looks at the board at any certain point and can "see" what will happen down the line depending upon the choice made. Bad analogy, I know, but just thinking. With a degree in Theology from an SDA school, I do not know..."

-Steven Johnson, Texas

"I really enjoyed the latest synergy column. The story you started with reminded me vividly of my attempts to convince my mother (at about age 12) that I should be allowed to buy a pair of bright yellow leather platform sandals which I had seen on one of my first parentless shopping trips with a friend...wisely, she said no. But your dialogue sparked more than just painful old memories.

I, too, have been giving a lot of thought to the question of God's foreknowledge and predestination and have concluded that despite its appeal, the "openness of God" theory may be just a little TOO open for me. I like that you dealt with Reform theology and double predestination. I got embroiled in a fascinating debate about that on an equally fascinating website called "Ship of Fools" awhile ago...the discussion is at http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?bb=get_topic;f=2;t=004374 ... it was interesting to see what the Calvinists had to say about it. But I can't accept that view of God either.

I like the C.S. Lewis quote you used, Leslie. I too agree that human freedom limits God's omnipotence. But sometimes then I wonder if the theology I've hammered out for myself doesn't limit God's omnipotence TOO much. I find myself reading a passage like Isaiah 6 for this week's Sabbath School lesson, and realizing that I don't give much space to the concept of God's sovereignty, of God "high and lifted up" above all our human free will...and I guess that's why the Bible is so useful as a corrective when our own ideas run away with us."

- Trudy Morgan-Cole, New Brunswick, Canada

"You two sisters of Gabriel have neatly encapsulated the standoffs that exist in all theological circles today. I think I have given background to this brilliant conversation in God At Risk. Keep thinking--it makes God feel rewarded for putting up with this rebel planet."

- Herb Douglass, California

"I believe in freedom of choice. I also believe God can know beforehand what our choices will be....any Mom can do this with a fair bit of success (not 100%, though). Here's how it works:

PLAN A (for 0-10% success) Ask your child,"what do you want for breakfast," and you have less than 10% chance of guessing accurately unless your child chooses almost the same thing every day.

PLAN B (for 50% success) Ask your child, "would you like Cheerios or oatmeal for breakfast, " and you guess right about half the time.

PLAN C (for near 100% success) Tell your child, "here's your breakfast, do you want to eat or not, " and you will meet with near 100% success, but your victory will be tempered by having a child that fears you rather than loves you.

I'm curious to know if any of these sound like the way God operates. Does God ever limit our choices? We are dealing with a PLAN C situation now where we are having to make a "here are your options, take it or leave it" choice right now with regards to continued employment and a desirable location for our family and finances. Comments?"

-Karen Liveshay, Arizona


God's Vision, Our Decision LK: Hey Jen, here's a deep, philosophical question for you. If my preteen daughter, Becky, and I run down to Payless ShoeSource to replace her perpetually outgrown church shoes, and she gets lost in a time warp vacillating between the white, too-spiky-heeled, open-backed sandals with the rhinestone, sparkly butterflies that she wants, and the beige, slightly-less-spiky, rhinestone-free, more-respectable-but-still-attractive sandals that I want her to get, (you'd be proud of me--I gave her my input then stood back and let her decide)--does God know which pair she'll finally end up clutching to her fashion-conscious heart as we exit the store? JS: Before I answer that, let me warn you that the "I'm going to let you choose" routine can really backfire. I did that once and found myself watching my own preteen clutching a pair of six-inch platforms to her fashion-conscious heart. But back to your question--does God know which pair of shoes she'll choose? Of course He does. His divinity extricates Him from the boundaries of time and space and allows Him to see what will be as if it already is. LK: I agree, but some folks are rethinking the age-old doctrine of divine omniscience. They're wondering: if God knows our choices such that we can never surprise Him, are we still truly free to choose? And perhaps more importantly, if God knows how we'll respond to Him, is He still truly free to interact with us in a spontaneous, unbiased fashion? JS: I remember pleading with a friend of mine who was about to file for divorce. He was utterly convinced that his wife was his enemy. I told him to keep loving her on the basis that Jesus loved Judas in spite of the fact that He knew of his future betrayal. Isn't this the supreme mark of agape? God kept pouring out His love upon Judas even though He knew that the relationship had no future. Although His goal is to save us, His love isn't results-driven in the sense that it withdraws when things don't pan out. So yes, we are free to choose, even though God knows what we will choose. Why should we assume otherwise? LK: I think that to assume otherwise is to create a problem where none exists. But those who are entertaining the idea that God doesn't comprehensively know the future, seem to be doing so as a reaction against an extreme version of His sovereignty that equates His foreknowledge with predetermination.1 Calvinism, or "classical theology," teaches that God not only knows everything we'll do, He has also determined what it will be beforehand. As one Calvinist apologist has said, "The will of God is inevitable. God does what He wants. . .. Should God have created all men for no other purpose than to consign them to an eternity in hell. . .. we would have no recourse. There would be no reason to protest. God can do with that which is His own as He wishes. . .You were made to glorify Him either as a vessel of mercy or as a vessel of wrath."2 Doesn't exactly give you warm, fuzzy feelings toward God, does it? JS: I'm taking a class at Westminster Theological Seminary, and I have a hunch some of their classical theologians might say that warm, fuzzy feelings toward God are not what we want, anyway! I think they would also assert that God's predetermination does not eclipse free will. I asked my professor for a comment on this, and he said, "God accomplishes His sovereign plan through the true validity of the choices of the secondary agent." But I don't understand how God can determine my choice and still allow me my choice. In other words, it seems like claiming that God allows free will, and yet Himself predetermines everything, is self-contradictory. As you pointed out, some react to this by saying that God neither determines our choices, nor knows what our choices will be. Intriguingly, there seems to be an underlying agreement between the "classical" and the "open" camps. One says that God knows the future, in fact determines the future. The other says that God neither knows nor determines the future. But both think that for Him to know the future is to determine it. Don't the Scriptures teach (And I'm finally getting around to your last question) that God knowing the future does not equate to Him controlling the future? That God can genuinely experience disappointment of His brightest hopes and best-laid plans? Bringing this into the context of salvation: God knows that not all will be saved, and yet ordains that none be lost. Can you say "Amen" to that, little blond prairie rabbit? LK: Amen! God has made it clear that what He wants more than anything is for "all [people] to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4, NKJV). Unfortunately, our perverse choices often make it impossible for even God to get what He wants. Calvinism can't seem to stomach such frustration of the divine will. I appreciate C.S. Lewis' observation about that: "It is objected that the ultimate loss of a single soul means the defeat of omnipotence. And so it does. In creating beings with free will, omnipotence from the outset submits to the possibility of such defeat. What you call defeat, I call miracle: for to make things which are not Itself, and thus to become, in a sense, capable of being resisted by its own handiwork, is the most astonishing and unimaginable of all the feats we attribute to the Deity."3 I actually find God's vulnerability to His creation very endearing and admirable. I envision Him as the kind of parent who takes us to the shoe store, and after reasoning with us, (assuming we're of reasoning age--I wouldn't try it with a two-year-old), steps back and lets us try our wings a little--which, as you say, can sometimes backfire. Which brings me back, in my circular way, to the great sandal debate. Which pair do you think Becky ended up clutching to her little preteen heart as we exited the store? JS: What, do you think I'm all-knowing or something? LK: Oh, brother. Everybody wants to be a comedian. Well, make an educated guess then. JS: I guess that she, after some struggle and deliberation, resigned herself to tasteful functionality vs. flash and foot problems and chose the respectable beige shoes. But I base that on a knowledge of Becky's tasteful, respectable personality, which might have, since I last saw her, been blown away in the winds of adolescent autonomy-seeking. She's how old? LK: Twelve-and-a-half. And the "respectable beige shoes" were actually a two-and-a-half-inch-heel compromise between the really spiky-heeled sparkly butterflies and the too-respectable sandals that I originally wanted her to get. But even if you or I foreknew what she'd choose, foreknown is not foregone; the decision was still hers to make. And that's how it is with God. While He may envision for us something as prosaic as sensible shoes, or something as profound as eternal life--and even foreknow which way we'll go--the decision is still ours to make. But you're pretty good at this game, Jen. Let's try another one--If I was stranded on a desert island, dying of thirst, and I had a choice between talking theology and dousing my burning tonsils with an ice-cold glass of fresh coconut-pineapple juice, what do you think I'd choose? JS: You'd die of thirst talking theology. But my knowing that about you in no way consigns you to that decision. Know what I mean, egghead? LK: Fair enough. I'm responsible for my own compulsive communicativeness. And if any of our readers would like to indulge their compulsive need to communicate, they can just click on this link àjennifer@jenniferjill.org and join the conversation! It's your turn to let us know what you think! 1. This extreme and unbiblical position--that God does not comprehensively know the future but rather knowledgeably anticipates it--is referred to as the "Openness of God" position. While it has many good and valid things to say about God's vulnerability and interactiveness with humanity, it also significantly undermines His sovereignty. 2. Jay Adams, The Grand Demonstration (Santa Barbara, CA: EastGate Publishers, 1991), pp. 55, 49, 50, emphasis in original. 3. C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain (New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 1996), pp. 129-130. "Excellent article/dialog Jennifer! It is astounding to me that the traditional Calvanists so distort the image of a freedom giving God to that of a pure dictator/arbitor of both good and evil, with His created beings mere automatons robotically carrying out pre-programed thoughts and deeds. How can any believer of such rubbish honestly look anyone in the eye and share the possibility of salvation experience through receiving the gift of Christ and His righteousness? Yet multitudes are truly under that deception! Amazing!! The Divine gift of freedom to CHOOSE does indeed determine our eternal destiny. Your and LK's dialogs are quite stimulating both theologically and intellectually....glad to be on your list!" -Michael Delaney, Florida "Is it possible that, in regard to our "choices" and Divine Foreknowledge, Omniscience, or whatever label you want to put on it, God may "see" a multitude of outcomes based upon which choice we make (if we truly have "free," non-predetermined will)? Kind of like a chess player that looks at the board at any certain point and can "see" what will happen down the line depending upon the choice made. Bad analogy, I know, but just thinking. With a degree in Theology from an SDA school, I do not know..." -Steven Johnson, Texas "I really enjoyed the latest synergy column. The story you started with reminded me vividly of my attempts to convince my mother (at about age 12) that I should be allowed to buy a pair of bright yellow leather platform sandals which I had seen on one of my first parentless shopping trips with a friend...wisely, she said no. But your dialogue sparked more than just painful old memories. I, too, have been giving a lot of thought to the question of God's foreknowledge and predestination and have concluded that despite its appeal, the "openness of God" theory may be just a little TOO open for me. I like that you dealt with Reform theology and double predestination. I got embroiled in a fascinating debate about that on an equally fascinating website called "Ship of Fools" awhile ago...the discussion is at http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?bb=get_topic;f=2;t=004374 ... it was interesting to see what the Calvinists had to say about it. But I can't accept that view of God either. I like the C.S. Lewis quote you used, Leslie. I too agree that human freedom limits God's omnipotence. But sometimes then I wonder if the theology I've hammered out for myself doesn't limit God's omnipotence TOO much. I find myself reading a passage like Isaiah 6 for this week's Sabbath School lesson, and realizing that I don't give much space to the concept of God's sovereignty, of God "high and lifted up" above all our human free will...and I guess that's why the Bible is so useful as a corrective when our own ideas run away with us." - Trudy Morgan-Cole, New Brunswick, Canada "You two sisters of Gabriel have neatly encapsulated the standoffs that exist in all theological circles today. I think I have given background to this brilliant conversation in God At Risk. Keep thinking--it makes God feel rewarded for putting up with this rebel planet." - Herb Douglass, California "I believe in freedom of choice. I also believe God can know beforehand what our choices will be....any Mom can do this with a fair bit of success (not 100%, though). Here's how it works: PLAN A (for 0-10% success) Ask your child,"what do you want for breakfast," and you have less than 10% chance of guessing accurately unless your child chooses almost the same thing every day. PLAN B (for 50% success) Ask your child, "would you like Cheerios or oatmeal for breakfast, " and you guess right about half the time. PLAN C (for near 100% success) Tell your child, "here's your breakfast, do you want to eat or not, " and you will meet with near 100% success, but your victory will be tempered by having a child that fears you rather than loves you. I'm curious to know if any of these sound like the way God operates. Does God ever limit our choices? We are dealing with a PLAN C situation now where we are having to make a "here are your options, take it or leave it" choice right now with regards to continued employment and a desirable location for our family and finances. Comments?" -Karen Liveshay, Arizona